come to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
gumby
I don't see anything anywhere in the bible that says God is holding "children responsible for what their parents did". Adamic sin simply proves that man can and will sin. So I don't think you know the "Bible tale" of how mankind needs saving. Are we punished for the sins of others?
Sorry, I was refering to Adamic sin
I like your chart! I think I see a good thread topic on it. "Are we punished for the sins of others?"
D Dog
come to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
gumby
Deputy dog,
It's a natural human reaction to get all pissed and shit at others who might ruin or at least cast doubts on your belief system.....so don't feel bad, I did the same thing.
I'm not sure what you mean, if I didn't enjoy this, I could get rid of you guys with just one click. But I think I found AlanF's hot button
come to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
Alan F
So the origin of the Christian God is as mysterious as is the origin of the Big Bang.
I didn't say: He was a mystery. I said: "God had no cause". But if you're saying that the universe came from nothing, I have some land I want to sell you, real cheap! If something can come from nothing I will write you a check for a million dollars, take it to the bank and try to cash it.
As for the Big Bang
According to the physicists who are the keepers of this idea
Can you name them, because the leading ones, like Stephen Hawking and Neil Turok would not agree with them.
: But you're the one with all the answers.
A typical Christian answer -- you don't speak truth. I never said or implied anything of the sort. Indeed, I don't even particularly believe that The Big Bang is a good explanation for the origin of the universe, and even if it's a partially decent explanation, it's far from complete.
What I mean is, you are telling us that you know more about the Christian God than the Christians do. It sounds like you are saying that if I knew what you know I would stop believing in God. Alan I didn't know you were such a bible scalar.
Living one's life based on realities that can be observed and/or produce real, observable effects is invariably better than living it based on unrealities such as Santa Clause. Many Christian claims, and ideas found in the Bible, are demonstrably unreal.
You must mean things like how something came from nothing or the spontaneous appearance of life? The scientific explanation of those things by most takes much more faith to believe in, than the bible does. Sorry, if believing in something bigger than myself or what I can see, offends you
Unlike many religious people who think they know the mind of the Christian God or some other god.
I do not make the claim to know the mind of God. I'm just trying to understand what He reveals in His word, and I don't think His word contains His entire mind.
: Yea, your fallen nature makes you feel good.
This comment has nothing to do with this thread, and serves only as a meaningless ad hominem that shows you can't answer the problems I posed.
Well, I think it has everything to do with this thread. Would you not agree that you (personally) can't choose to believe in God? D Dog
come to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
Seriously, I'm not trying to give you personally a hard time, but I do get a bit righteously bothered when I see attempts to justify beliefs that have proved so destructive to so many. Frankly, your comments here really don't come close to dealing with the points I and Terry made earlier in this thread, and I hope you understand that my sometimes tongue-in-cheek comments are designed to point this out. Your comments might make you feel good, but then, Santa Clause makes kids feel good, contemplating the 'reality' of a God-made flat earth makes Flat-Earthers feel good, Dianetics makes Scientologists feel good, and perhaps sacrificing chickens to Siva makes Hindus feel good. So what? Do you get my point about belief versus reality?
Yea, your fallen nature makes you feel good.
come to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
AlenF
God has no cause. But you're the one with all the answers. Why don't you tell us what your faith is based on. It sounds like you think you have something better. So tell us about your God or yourself, are they the same person?
come to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
So tell us AlenF, What caused the BIG BANG?
come to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
Terry
Ever wonder about the whole "fallen" nature of man? Nobody has ever really explained it. It isn't very scientific to think "sin" can be inherited, after all.
I don't believe the "fallen" nature of man is the same thing as sin. Sin is a result of the "fallen" nature.
That is a huge premise, Adamic sin. I think, personally, it is a bogus concept because it comes from St.Augustine and is a primitive misunderstanding of what is inheritable.
Well first, I don't share your concept of "Adamic sin". You seem to be a perfect example of the fallen nature. Sorry if that offends you, but we all start out in rebellion of God, and that is the "fallen nature". Another way of saying this is "man is not a sinner because sins, he sins because he is a sinner" I don't see anything anywhere in the bible that says God is holding "children responsible for what their parents did". Adamic sin simply proves that man can and will sin. So I don't think you know the "Bible tale" of how mankind needs saving. 2nd, I think Paul did a good job teaching this concept (the fallen nature) long before St.Augustine.
Let us face facts. The fact is that the earth was not specially made for mankind. How do I know? Well, the remains of several million dinosaurs over a period of millions and millions of years shows they were here first. And more than that, these animals were mostly two groups: flesh-eating and ferocious predators and peaceful and innocent vegetarians that feared for their lives. What is the point of all that in god's great scheme of things? Death and destruction are everywhere in nature from the most primordial times. I see nothing of a supreme being in all that.
I don't know where you get your facts. Many of these "facts" are still hotly debated. But I love how you caracterized your dinosaurs "ferocious, peaseful and innocent"
So, how then, can we create a whole religious doctrine around faith, baptism, preaching, joining, believing etc if Jesus himself based forgiveness in his dying moments on the simple fact that sinners did not have a clue what they were doing?
Now that my friend is a good question? That's why my faith is based on God's mercy!
I personally don't bother trying to piece together all those old weirdo ideas and try and make logical sense out of them. Why? Because there is no "there" there. You'll get about as comprehensive a world view at the local looney bin interviewing people who think they are Napoleon.
So tell us, who do you think you are?
I ask that no one take what I say on face value. Feel free to think and choose what appeals to you. For my own sanity I have chosen this view. I invite anyone to read about how the bible was put together by the editors and redactors through the ages and THEN make a determination. That is what I've done.
I wonder why you didn't Choose God. D Dog PS What do you think Undisfellowshipped?
come to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
LT
Your problem isn't with me.
Romans 9:19
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , Why hast thou made me thus?That's not hyper-calvinism or double-predestination.
D Dog
come to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
LT & Reboot
Man's Responsibility vs God's Sovereignty
I think the whole point here is that, according to the bible, when it comes to salvation, man has no responsibility (response ability).
Romans 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.Where does the bible say that man can choose who the true God is going to be? It's not like an election, where we vote. God is the one who elects his children. His is the only vote that counts.
D Dog
come to the wedding.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.
LT
The two camps tend to dominate these two viewpoints and make them extremes. I would stick my neck out and state that both are correct if viewed strictly from the perspective from which they come.
- From an human/experiential perspective, however (and citing Abraham v's Sodom as a biblical example) is "appears" that we make choices of our own volition and freewill, and that God somehow accedes.
I'm not sure I can agree, but, I see you have "appears" in quotes.
Three frogs are sitting at the edge of a pond, two decide to jump in, how many are left? The answer is three. Two choose to jump in, but changed, their minds when they saw the big fish waiting to eat them, so they didn't go through with their choice after all. God has a way of controlling circumstances so that He gets the desired action. We do all have a will, it remains to be seen just how free it actually is. According to my bible, it's not as free as most people think. D Dog
